Raising fees and other ridiculous suggestions..
Posted December 2nd, 2008 by Melonie Burgess
I removed this blog due to some local circumstances. For those of you who previously read it, the views expressed were mine alone.
Melonie
I removed this blog due to some local circumstances. For those of you who previously read it, the views expressed were mine alone.
Melonie
I'm so sorry that your
I'm so sorry that your school hasn't followed-up with you to ensure your business succeeds. I received a free mouse pad in the mail from my alma mater (with their name and phone number on it, so I won't forget who cares about me!). It has proven very useful in my acupuncture practice...
(Congrats on the article!)
LOL
I'll bet that mouse pad is your most prized possession!
More prized than the
More prized than the education I received...
Wow, we could really use
Wow, we could really use a mouse pad at the clinic. I feel unloved.
-David
(I did once get a nalgene bottle with the school logo, but I was a tuition paying student then.)
Circle Community Acupuncture
San Francisco
www.circleca.com
business models and tolerance
Just a question for you all.
If you feel angry at someone telling you what kind of business model you should have, why is it okay to suggest to people who run bed acupuncture/insurance based higher end practices that there way is not okay?
I believe in medicine for the working people-that is what I have devoted my working life to for over two decades. But I do not believe that people who do it the other way are wrong.
There is room in this world for all of us
different perspectives
I could see how people might interpret CAN's pricks, prods, and pokes as inferring that "their way is wrong". But I think that if you fairly analyze the bulk of the posts on the CAN forum, that proves to be a faulty assumption.
The main points I see made again and again are that the vast majority of people can't access affordable acupuncture (or medicine in general). There needs to be reform in the acupuncture profession to change that and to root out the greed behind the established institutions who want to maintain the status quo for their own advantage (e.g. the schools, insurance industry, NCCAOM). Is there even any debate on these basic facts?
As to how individual practitioners choose to respond to this call for change, I see a lot of defensiveness against perceived personal attacks. Then people stomp off in a huff and refuse to debate, alleging they've been wrongly accused. What does that accomplish?
All true religions seek to gain access to that level of consciousness which is not ego-bound.
...
By my nature, I feel terrible when people's feelings are hurt. But I'm glad you called foul on this thread, Jordan.
Sarah, your comments and feedback in the previous blog lead to an engaging thread. It's a shame you've decided to feel hurt by static that correspondence in this format will create from time to time.
Issues like the one Cris & Melonie have cracked open call for debate and various perspectives - as subtle and pervasive as these issues can be. I for one am sorry you've bailed so soon after stoking the fire a bit.
room for different kinds of models
It seems to me that there are people who have money that like the posh experience. There is one woman I know who has an extremely successful practice in Kirkland treating well to do clients mostly for sports injuries. She has made enough money to buy the building her business is in and a house. She employs another acupuncturist to help her too.
While that is not my dream, does it not speak to the proverbial American dream? That is to be able to afford to buy a home.
I am devoted to providing health care for everyone-I have no desire to own a home or much of anything-but I still think there ought to be a way for others to do that from the profession of acupunture if they choose.
Is there any way all of y'all can think of to leave room for that paradigm (seriously asking-not being devil's advocate here)?
My wish is that the education could be subsidized. Then all of us could get our education and practice the way that felt comfortable to each one of us.
Who could we rally to get our education subsidized if we do low cost community acupuncture? That sort of program exists for MD's and nurse practitioners, etc.
There will always be room
for those at the top of the economic heap. BA will continue to exist, as it is and in other forms to serve the needs and wants of those with a clear path to access this type of care. The consumers who can afford these practices will continue to let practitioners know what they want, where they want the services located, etc.
The programming of the acupuncture schools, regulatory bodies, etc., is directed towards getting practitioners to serve populations that have resources. THis only makes sense since there are so few jobs for acupuncturists other than starting a private practice. The message we get in school, whether conscious or subtle is that we need to cultivate patients from the population of people who can pay for our services, and up until recently, it was though by most acupuncturists that the population needed to be able to pay upwards of $60 per treatment in order for us to "value" our medicine.
To call Larry or Melonie out for passing judgement really misses the point. Why do so many other acupuncturists feel threatened and judged by CA or the economic, class, etc. structures that it calls attention to? Even when acupuncturists immediately resonate with the idea that CA can bring acupuncture to a wider range of people and allow the practitioner to make a living, they often are still quagmired in fear and resistance to it.
Yes there are successful acupuncturists in affluent areas that realize dreams of home owning, and even employ other acupuncturists. Yes there are doctors who change their practices and can offer more uninsured people care, BUT to me these stories are offered up as the rarity. To me these stories only really serve to emphasize the failings of our healthcare system and the prevailing acupuncture business model.
CA is not merely saying that it is wrong for others to practice in the current "standard" style, but that it is wrong to think that this is the only valid or effective way to practice.
I can appreciate your desire for subsidized education and assume that you mean ALL education.... is that a correct assumption?
I know that there is some student loan forgiveness for MD's who serve in communities that are under-severed by doctors (e.g. rural areas, poor urban areas) etc., but I would love to know what the guidelines are that determine an under-served community in these programs.
Cris
Cris wrote...
"CA is not merely saying that it is wrong for others to practice in the current "standard" style, but that it is wrong to think that this is the only valid or effective way to practice. "
This is the issue here, Jill.
CAP after CAP are proving that providing acup. treatments at prices made affordable to a LARGE chunk of a given community population while a) providing living wages to the punk, b) creating sustainable jobs for other punks, and c) putting some CAPs in the position to be purchasing clinic space and/or multiple clinic sites are not mutually exclusive.
As a voracious CAN reader, I would imagine you already know this.
Why do you passionately argue for inclusion of the status quo in discussions about community acupuncture, veering off-topic?
From Wikipedia:
"An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
If the shoe fits...
good topic
I do not consider myself an internet troll nor do I get off topic just to disrupt.
What I am trying to be is the voice that attempts a balance. There is a danger in group think that people get carried away with the prevailing ideas in the group and lose sight of the bigger picture. I felt the idea about lowering the standards of our education really needed to be idiscussed.
The reason I bring up the topic of acceptance is that the intolerance of others style is not productive. It is important for people who are calling for acceptance of their ideology to remain open to others; or they are in danger of becoming as narrow as the ones they are accusing of intolerance.
It is all about balance.
"group think"...
...is (apparently) what a group of people who are outside the mainstream think, whereas (again) the ideology of the mainstream is rendered invisible.
distinctions
I think there is an important distinction to be made between tolerance (and maybe even love in a spiritual sense) of human beings (always essential), versus tolerance of different ideologies (which is definitely not essential).
[I had originally inserted a quote of the first paragraph of the Declaration of Independence to make my point here, but later removed it...Interdependence seems a more viable path for humanity if we are to survive.]
Jill, in the interest of free speech and open debate, I think it's fine for you to state your position - when it is on topic. Your post above "Room for different models", is off-topic in my opinion, and therefore, not relevant to Melonie's point.
Her original post did not start out condemning mainstream (boutique) acupuncture. She wrote about how the owner of her school made unsolicited comments to one of her partners, arrogantly telling them that their way of doing business was wrong. (Whether or not those comments were fairly represented is another matter and I'm not judging that here.)
However, if it is true, I would not be surprised. These sorts of comments have been made before by the acupuncture establishment.
Nobody is saying it is wrong to give acupuncture to rich people and charge them lots of money. The obscenity is to have a system in place that attempts to brainwash an entire profession that that is the only acceptable standard of practice; and to insinuate that to attempt to provide services for people who can't meet the autocratically imposed boutique standard ($65 and up)..."cheapens the profession".
To point a finger at CAN for being intolerant of diversity - particularly in the context of this thread - seems a distortion. Free speech isn't free. It demands ethical responsibility and accountability.
All true religions seek to gain access to that level of consciousness which is not ego-bound.
free speech
The beginning of her thread was talking about how it angered Melanie to be told that her way of doing business was 'wrong'.
That was the reason I brought up my point of not pointing fingers at others and telling them that their way ('boutique' acupuncture) is wrong either.
Energy spent in anger or condemnation of others way of doing things (if they are not oppressing anyone) is not productive. Yes, even accepting the ideology of another way of doing acupuncture seems better to me than being exclusive about the way we do it. Having the ideology of someone practicing acupuncture for the affluent does not get in the way of our practicing CA.
Melanie was offended by that woman's attitude (I can see why) and I am sure anyone running an acupuncture 'boutique' would be offended by reading postings that infer that the way they are doing acupuncture is wrong. Even the name 'acupuncture boutique' sounds like a condemnation of that syle of acupuncture.
It is not off topic to note this. It is good to stand up for what we believe in (I say we because I fervently believe in the CA style of acupuncture-but not to the point of condemning others who do it differently).
My point is that it is important to remain open if we expect/desire others to be open to us.
As an aside, I cannot remember being taught that there is only one business model for acupuncture when I went to school. As a matter of fact, there was only one course in business at all and it was pretty weak. Mostly it taught how to put together a business plan. I ended up using some of that information when it came time to put together a model for a CA practice.
The biggest problem was a lack of guidance from them. I agree that there needs to be more information about the business end of acupuncture. Having the class and the discussion of the business end of things right at the beginning would probably be most helpful since it would help some people decide right up front if they thought they could actually practice.
One reader has already stormed off offended,
and it seems that although my blog stirred some reaction in you, Jill, you are choosing to post those comments here.
I believe it is possible to remain open to other's opinions while expressing my own contrary opinions. My expectations of others to remain open come from a belief that conflict can be a productive force if those participating can remain focused on their goals and intentions. My goal and intentions in writing my most recent blog was to find out what it is about the term boutique acupuncture that is so offensive to others. My goal was to defend an argument that infact this term does describe what many acupuncturists do whether they realize it or not, they sell their services in a way that would make some people feel left out or even offended--- the same way the word boutique does.
Do you really think that my blog is oppressing other acupuncturists? Is my use of this label "boutique acupuncture" stopping people from following their hearts, making a living, or being free? I would argue that it is the classism inherent in the practice of acupuncture in exclusive settings that is more limiting to others...to who? THe structures of higher education are limiting an oppressive, acupuncture schools included. How do we address this exclusion and oppression you ask in the forum? By trying to include these other voices, which may be angry and pissed off from not being heard.
I accept that there will always be other models of practicing acupuncture, I do not see how CA is exclusive in it's ideology, but rather inclusive. I understand that we don't all agree on this forum, but find your mission to provide balance through disagreement to be frustrating and not too productive. I see the same types of questions posed over and over again, with the same types of responses posted over and over. I too urge you to keep more on topic.When the conversation starts to draw in many topics at once it is difficult to focus and perhaps find the productive or helpful bit, the realizations, etc. If we flood each comment with tons of emotional allegations, we will probably just keep having the same conversations.
frustration
If you re-read my postings you will see that there has been no disagreement in this thread. The bit about education was definitely a disagreement-but this was not.
My stand was not about Melanie's beliefs but rather about the way in which she expressed her dislike and condemnation of BA practitioners.
The balance I am reaching for is one in which we can stand up for our beliefs without feeling threatened by others. If you read the reply from Melanies teacher, you will see that she reacted very defensively. She was hurt and became defensive. I am not sure what was said, if the teacher was mean spirited or not -but I do think that a better dialogue might now be reached. Melanie sat down and wrote out her questions in a way that invited discourse and answers.
That certainly is a better way to get results.
Perhaps you are hearing the same thing over and over again-but it has not been the same thing over and over again at all.
If this forum is called poke provoke and prod-why is it that when I try to provoke discussion that questions what we are saying, you ask me to stop?
Jill
I think a lot of the hostility
to private room/BA practices on this site comes from a heart felt concern for social justice that is not carried out in the acupuncture profession as a whole. I think we saw this same sentiment in the election of Barack Obama following the George Bush years of widening gaps between those that have and the rest of us.
After watching you and yours get less and less and those with a ridiculous amount get more and more through government policies from tax breaks, corporate subsidies and endless other perks to the owning class, you get angry and impatient with those who don't see these things. And on your way to the unemployment office or the food shelf, you have little compassion for those making over $250,000 wailing about higher taxes. They think they made their money on their own. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
Many of us in CA see the inherant institutional bias in the acupuncture "profession" that selects those with $, class, race and educational privelege to be acupuncturists and then exploits them for the gain of the people running the institutions of acupuncture (schools, accrediting bodies, organizations, etc.) The charges of BA practices and the bias to serve those with insurance is the last straw.
While it may feel unfair to target individual BA practitioners, this movement is holding acupuncturists and the institutions of acupuncture accountable for their choices. We are also establishing accessible, sustainable businesses that make acupuncture available to many more people.
I don't begrudge those with privilege to have BA acupuncture if they want it but, I sure do begrudge the institutions of acupuncture their bias toward BA. Until the rest of us have access to acupuncture at an affordable rate, our anger (Yes, Lisa, mine, too!) helps fuel our cry for change and the targets of that anger are those who don't see their privilege and the results of it.
anger as a motivating force
When I was younger I had a t-shirt that read "Eat the Rich". I was angry a lot at the institutions that oppressed the masses. That is probably one of the reasons I spent as much time volunteering for programs like Head Start.
Looking back, I see that anger was not really motivating. In fact, it got in the way many times.
In the middle class neighborhood where I used to own a home, many of the folks used pesticides on their lawns/gardens. One of the things I was deeply passionate about and involved in, was educatung people about the harm pesticides cause. I felt that the food supply, our water and our whole life was being jeopardized by the use of poison on our food and in our gardens. As a matter of fact, I still believe that-but that is another story.
I went to my neighbors feeling very angry about how they were poisoning me and themselves. In trying to talk to them, I offended them instead-because I was angry. That did not help my intention to get them to stop what they were doing.
So, I put it out to all of us, that anger/intolerance will get in the way of the cause rather than help it. If we want to change someones opinion, we will probably be heard more and be able to have a discussion if we do not come from a place of anger. Anger only serves to turn people off.
dominant ideologies and American Dreams
Jill, are you seriously suggesting that owning your own home is something that only boutique acupuncturists want, or can have? That it is part of a "posh" lifestyle? Sadly, in this era of foreclosures, home ownership is becoming "posh." Is this the American Dream?
Look, we're not fighting individual acupunks, we never have an you know better. We're fighting a dominant ideology, one that is promulgated by US
Acupuncture institutions, and which dovetails with US "free market" capitalist ideology.
Dominant ideologies tend to be invisible - and yet they somehow always
have their defenders. One of the ideas that we have to put to rest is that the US is a meritocracy, that people are rewarded in proportion to how hard they work. We know this is not true; its patent falsehood is why we have sliding scales. As Ann so concisely put it: "they think they made their money on their own. Nothing could be farther from the truth." The same could be said about the entire US economy.
Anyway. If some of us get pissy about this, it's because we get tired of being lied to. And btw I love the idea of free higher ed, but I think if the US were really committed to the idea of meritocracy, there would be a complete overhaul of the educational system from early childhood up. There's an issue worth getting really pissed about.
owning your own home
I was not inferring that only people who practice boutique acupuncture want to own their own homes (and certainly not inferring that it is the only way to get your own home).
My take on the folks that I know successfully practicing BA is that they do not think about ideologies. The woman who I was referring to in the earlier post, worked extremely hard to get what she ended up with. Many long hours and six days a week. She worked so hard, she had to take a leave of absence-it wore her down. What was the real cost to her in going after all that money?
I know of another woman who worked so hard to make the millions which she eventually lost in this stock debacle, that she lost all of her endocrine function and had to retire. Her adrenals,throid and ovaries all quit on her. Her and I used to go round about the 'evils' of the stock market and who it hurt. Now that she lost her money because of the stock crash, she sees the market in another light. But her view still has nothing to do with the real cost of the market and what its ideology means to the 'common' person.
I agree that the dominant ideology is insidious and that it is a productive pursuit to help to educate others about the meaning of the dominant ideology. Having a debate that is not fueled by anger or righteousness is most likely going to be more fruitful in bringing about change, than coming from a place of anger. I know because I have tripped over this one many times in my own life.
free lunch
your wish is that education be subsidized?
i assume you are talking about acupuncture education, and i must say that i do not think it is possible to achive at this point and i also hope that no one subsidizes the acupuncture education in this country the way it is today. it would be a giant waste of taxpayers' money. acupuncture education needs to be uprooted and reformed to reflect the needs of the people that can benefit from our medicine and the people who are wanting to practice it. it needs to prove that it can prepare practitioners to set up the kind of practices that truly make a difference in the health and lives of the majority of the population, not just the few chosen people who hava a lot of extra money. until this happens, the education should not be subsidized. if the schools keep teaching their students to cater their practices to the upper classes and pretend that it will help their alums make an actual living after they graduate, there will still be a bunch of acu school grad who cannot make ends meet, even if they got a free lunch in school.
i have said this before and i will say it again, the acu schools need to wake up and smell the coffee and realize that what they are offering needs serious adjustments in order to be worth the money they charge for it.
i have worked in acu schools (still do) and have dealt with a variety of attitudes and fears around my chosen way to practice. i certainly understand the annoyance melonie felt when being offered the unsolicited advice about how she should run her practice. i would get angry too. i did not hear her putting down the BA practitioners, but her saying she believes that she has finally found the way to practice that she believes to be the best way. i am there too - the choices we make always have consequences.
-tatyana
clarification
Greed can be overt and subtle. It's just another way of saying "self-interest". Acupuncture schools are for profit institutions. By nature, there is considerable self-interest. CA clinics are also for-profit. But I would maintain that CA clinics are more egalitarian than the schools in terms of their orientation to the broader society.
All true religions seek to gain access to that level of consciousness which is not ego-bound.&a
another way to think about this...
...Mel, your image of tumbleweeds and a showdown made me think of those good old Spaghetti Westerns. I think we CANers' intentions are to be Good, but we are willing to be the Bad and the Ugly, as the occasion requires.
here's a link to the reponse to your blog
link
Misconception on conversations and people
What Cynthia did not answer
Hi Cynthia,
Welcome to CAN. I’m glad you chose to support this forum. Did you notice the motto on the home page is “Prick, Prod, and Provoke”? I hope you took the time to browse around to see what this forum is all about. If you did, you will have the appropriate context to understand why your suggestion to our partner inspired such emotion in me. Also, you will be able to more adequately address the core issues which were not addressed in your response. Those core issues are the following:
1. Why should we charge more?
2. How is what we charge cheapening the profession?
3. Why should we verify income?
4. Why should we need “more tools in our clinical bag” when acupuncture is so effective in its simplicity? If the therapies we learned in student clinic were enough to earn a decent living as an A.P., and to pay back student loans, then why would “money making” therapies like Point Injection and Facial Rejuvenation be needed? Why should an acupuncturist have to add those things to their practice in order to survive, instead of just adding them as a specialty?
5. Can you give us the percentage of former EWCNM students who are working full time and making a living as acupuncturists?
If you click on the Find A Clinic tab you’ll find that there are CA clinics in 22 states and beyond. We have received many inquiries from both practitioners and students regarding the CA model. This is a movement within our profession. With you being a leader in the field and a new member of CAN, those of us participating in this movement would be interested in reading your arguments for or against these core principles to the CA business model.
As it relates to my perceptions of you, I will offer this. Perhaps I misconstrued your intentions with your comments to my partner, however my opinion of you has been formed by my observations and experiences while I was at school and that discussion is not for this forum.
acusations untrue
Melonie ...I am so busy with the things I mentioned in my first response that I don't have time for pokes and prodes. You didn't ask these questions in your original blog so how could I have answered them? Rather I think you made accusations which were untrue, and so I tried to clear my name of your acusations. I think you owe me an apology but i will answer your questions below and then i will stop. If you are unsatisfied by my answers please call me and I would be happy to discuss this with you in person as we live in the same town.
1. I don't think I said you should charge more, maybe I did I don't remember exactly . I have many graduates whom I have to represent also. This issue is nationwide and controversial. But honestly i personally don't have a problem charging $15 if the person truly can't pay standard fees.
2. Its more complex issue than this simple question and this is not my arguement or battle to engage in, certainly not at all until you slandered me over it. Sometime when I have time i can discuss the implications of your concept of practice model and how it may effect other graduates and their practices and the field at large.
3. I think you should verify income because many people do not adhere to the sliding scale breakdown and I feel charging $15 a treatment is competing with other practices who do not have the same model as you do which puts your practice at a competive level that others my not be able to match if any potential patient can pay the minimum amount. So for my position as being able to fully support your practice concurrently with other types of practices, verification would handle that objection to your practice model..
4. No one has to add anything to their practice to be asucessful at treating patients. I agree with you. Your judgements on these other modalites and specialties that other students are in favor of is strictly your own judgement and slant. INjections can be an amazing tool to help treat stuck patients or certina acute situations.
5. I would be happy to give ou this info if alumni would anwer their surveys.
I only joined this is forum to answer your statements. I am sorry that my response didn't make a difference for your opinion of me. apparently it did not. So obviously you are not going to make an attempt to come to the alumni luncheons where pearls of wisdom are offered to alumn and other such events such as the free three hour seminar we recently put on for our alum at the college. rather you will retain you opinion and continue to promote it. not much I can do about that but if you want to discuss with me in person I would be happy to. My goal is to promote acupuncture, to help my students, and to create community alliances and solidarity with tolerance for diversity amoung acupuncturists in sarasota and the nation.
Also for the future maybe if you are in a college, or a situation where you think the leader is being unfair or not up to par, you might consider adressing the issue at the time .
all the best.....good luck with parenting it is the most challening task I have ever taken on.
Cynthia,I offer you my
Cynthia,
I offer you my apology for putting your conversation with my partner on a public forum. My intention with my post was to vent frustration and anger I have about some attitudes toward community acupuncture, it was not meant to be a personal attack on you.
Making acupuncture affordable and accessible to everyone is a crusade for me, and I am very passionate about it. Ever since I joined CAN, over a year ago, I have felt it to be a place where feelings, ideas and suggestions can be discussed, good or bad. I feel a strong connection to this community and the principles of community acupuncture. I have had more support here for all aspects of my practice than anywhere else.
I appreciate you offering some of your thoughts about the questions that always come up. I feel these are important questions that should be addressed by all members of the acupuncture community. I hope that even though you joined the forum, as you said, just to answer my statements, you will take the time to read through it. This network is a great example of colleagues coming together and supporting one another for a common goal. Here you will find unlimited help for any hurdle you may face anywhere from starting your practice to philosophical discussions to new ideas for treating a patient. It would be great if everyone in our field could be so open.
Sincerely,
Melonie Burgess
heh?
Cynthia, I don't know where this comment came from, because the original post was erased. But I want you to know that I find your comments personally offensive. How dare you suggest that Melanie or anyone else should stand as judge and jury when it comes to what I can and cannot afford to pay for acupuncture treatment? How do you propose to look into my life and "truly" understand my financial situation? You have slandered people like me and we haven't even met! Your stated goal may be to promote diversity, but everything in this last posts screams intolerance. In the future, I hope you'll consider that patients can also read public forums like this one. Just putting the idea out to the community that somehow patients who receive $15 treatments are somehow untrustworthy and hurt practitioners who charge more is very harmful to everyone involved. It pushes patients away from us all - high and low cost clinics alike. Patients need to trust acupuncturist, not see us bickering over who is cutting into who's business.
Please take the time to read through some of the threads inside the forums on the topic of income verification and the sliding scale. I think you'll find that this topic has been thoroughly discussed and analyzed and that there are good reasons why it continues to be our standard around here.
dignity
I hope that Cynthia is still reading this thread because what I have to say may clear up some confusion she has around the sliding scale WITHOUT proof of income.
I work in a community health clinic of the AMA variety doing my acupuncture. Consequently, I get a chance to serve people of very diverse social and economic backgrounds.
Yesterday I looked around at the people lying in the chairs relaxing and at ease with each other. There were two hispanic folks-an elderly woman of Scottish descent, one white transgender person and a middle aged black man who snored away for 2 hours. He comes for a place to rest cause he is a 'marginally housed' veteran with lots of pain.
The thing that they all have in common is feeling of ease when they come to see me. No questions or proof of what they can afford (that is such a tender spot for people-Cynthia, have you ever been financially challenged?) to muddy their visit. Just quiet dignity and care surrounded by people all seeking the same thing-without judgment.
There was a woman (just one of many people like this) who came to see me for a while who is a Hispanic hospitality worker (she cleaned for hotel chains). She came regularly for weeks before I saw that she was paying $25 a session (the fees at the clinic are $15 to $35). I knew that was a stretch for her so I gently suggested that she just pay the minimum. Funny thing was, she stopped coming soon after that. Go figure.I thought I was helping her out by suggesting she pay less and it might have been that I inadvertently injured her dignity.
The human spirit is large when you give it a chance to express itself without judgment or fear.
I hope that clears up why it is important for us CAN'ers to not ask for proof of income.
Jill