Classism and Marketing Conversation (Part Two): the Ravings of a Self-Righteous Hippie, or Cautionary Tales about Doing Good

Lisafer's picture

So for anyone who hasn't been following the conversation over at Burton Kent's blog (http://www.acupunctureclinicmarketing.com/sanborn-maxim/#comments), it's gotten, um, "animated". Which I think is a good thing.

There is potentially a lot to say about all of it, but I want to use this post to focus on responding to a specific set of comments, and to reflect back on some of the issues that started this conversation in the first place.

First, to Jared: I'm sincerely glad you figured out what works for you in your practice. I think it's great that you love your patients and that you listened to them. The more people who get acupuncture, in whatever setting they get it, the better. And thank you for saying that you tried the community acupuncture model and it didn't work for you. People need to hear that.

Second, to Burton: the exchange I had with Jared is a perfect example of why we need to have this conversation. Jared wrote that he read my book and he likes the idea of community acupuncture. Just like you, just like lots of people. And yet I bit his head off, in public, and I've done my best to pick a fight with you, also in public. I just want to clarify why.

Nobody in CAN wants to encourage acupuncturists to adopt the community acupuncture model when there's no way in hell it's going to work for them. There's no way in hell it's going to work for them if they are adopting it for idealistic reasons, if they are trying to do good. There's no room in community acupuncture for idealism. Community acupuncture only works when it's about reality. Reality means that acupuncturists who want to practice community acupuncture, if they want to make a living at it, have got to deal with their issues about class. The comments on your blog should be required reading for anybody contemplating a community acupuncture practice.

And about those comments...

I'm not trying to be Gandhi. Suggesting that I am is a great example of the classist dynamic that will undermine a well-meaning acupuncturist's community practice. And I have to add, Jared, that I've gotten the Gandhi treatment before (or, alternately, the Mother Theresa treatment) from a lot of acupuncturists, and I'd much rather get it in the context of a full frontal attack like yours than as an actual compliment. Either way, though, the implication is the same: that if I want to serve working class people, I must be some kind of wanna-be saint, because who else would get down in the gutter like that? Only a really extraordinary person would willingly devote herself to all those losers, who as we know are lazy, dirty, ignorant, and gleefully spending their healthcare dollars on cable TV.

And although I love the phrase "the ravings of a self-righteous hippie", and I can't wait to add it as a tagline to my new book, I'm going to quibble with the "self-righteous" part. Is it really self righteous to get mad when somebody insults you? Irritable, yes; bitchy, probably; unsaintly, definitely; but "self-righteous" implies a kind of abstract moralism that I have to tell you, I don't feel. My clinic's success depends on me not feeling that. What I do feel is a very concrete, very personal kind of rage. Is it being "holier than thou" when your true desire is not to be holy but to give the "thou" a hard slap upside the head? I bet Gandhi didn't talk like that.

Acupuncturists, and acupuncture business coaches, keep saying insulting classist things about people I really care about. I care about them not in some abstract, humanitarian way, but in the concrete, personal way you care about your friends, neighbors, and family. I don't have a problem with an acupuncturist deciding he only wants to serve upper middle class people. That's his choice, his business, none of mine. Sweeping generalizations about acupuncture, fees, and patients -- my patients! -- are my business, however. For instance:

"When I meet (an) acupuncturist that is charging far too low a rate it has nothing to do with trying to help people out but everything to do with a lack of confidence in ones self and (one's) clinical skills. I choose to serve my community by volunteering every week not by devaluing (my) professional service".

"The value and importance we place on something is heavily influenced by price. By underpricing your services, you make your patients undervalue your services. They'll comply less, complain more, and actually be worse patients because of the price you set. Don't cheapen yourself, your skills, or your profession."

"...it is well known that your personal income will be the same as that of your average patient. If your patients all make $25,000 to $40,000 a year, that's what your income will be as well...It may be wise to pick a town or area in which the median annual income is $75,000 to $100,000 a year... it is a proven fact that people who are not charged at all, or who are charged very low fees, rarely get well as quickly and completely as people who are charged more."

Everybody get the message? Don't treat people who can't afford market rates, because they won't get better anyway! And they'll be disrespectful jerks! And if you are even thinking about cheapening yourself by taking care of people who make $25-$40K a year, it's because you have no clinical confidence and no self-esteem! Because people who can't afford market rates aren't really worth anything anyway...

If that message doesn't make you mad, please don't even think about practicing community acupuncture. (Or using a sliding scale for any other purpose.) You can't have it both ways. You can't admire me, like my book, like the concept of community acupuncture, and simultaneously buy into the idea that you can "devalue" your professional services by charging "too little". Well, you can, but the cognitive dissonance is gonna get you (and your business) in the end. The impulse to have it both ways is an idealistic impulse, I think, and I'm not an idealist. I'm driven by my commitment to specific, actual people who need a specific, actual service. If you insult them, I will do my best to be a specific, actual bitch to you, because it's part of how I stay sane in the midst of people simultaneously telling me how much they admire me and how little self-esteem I must have to do what I do. You can't say I didn't warn you.

 

 

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But what are you being angry

But what are you being angry and pissed off about? Being angry that someone wrote something in a book that you choose to misinterpret is not going to change laws, education requirements, financial hurdles etc. Claiming that acupuncturists are classist because you disagree with them is just not helpful. It separates the profession of acupuncturists at a time when we all need to unite.

You are taking a piss

I think this discussion has run its course with this last comment by INCLUSION.  People are talking across form each other.

Unite around what?

It seems to me that  the most prevalent commonality that we as acupuncturists all have, is to care for our patients first and foremost.  The claim isn't that some acupuncturists are classist (homomphobic, racist, etc) is not one made to point fingers at a few while claiming indemnity from these real and human foibilities.  We all have them.  Perhaps this is the second commonality.  However, if we refuse to self-examine and reflect upon our actions as individuals, as a profession, as a community, as a society and culture, how will these things become evident?  How will they ever change?Cris   

amen Cris

The only person who can really get away with asking "can't we all just get along?" is the person who's been on the wrong side of the baton.

Yes this is a great discussion

I saw that that there but you put out the words

Magical money, just ask and it will appear!

That exchange was so frustrating to me because of the idea that people actually can afford high acupuncture prices, but they don't want to or just think they can't afford it. An example given of this is a woman who was paying an acupuncturist a lower fee, but she had to go see a new acupuncturist who insisted she pay $75 a treatment.  One might think this woman was screwed, but no! it turns out her mom had given her some money.  According to some people if everyone would just try harder the money would be there, if people really need acupuncture, they will find the money, if they just think abundance the magic money will appear! I guess poor people are either lying about how much money they have or too stupid to access the magic money.    

I'm uniformed.  Where does the magical money come from?  I need to learn how to access this magic money and teach the people around me how to get it so my patients who make $8.00/hr can pay me the $75 I deserve because I am a good acupuncturist, only a crappy acupuncturist would accept less (that's another valuable lesson from that thread.)  Add me to the angry list!  The magic money idea is stupid and insulting to people who don't have a lot and struggle to make ends meet.

I wonder if magic money is a class issue.  I welcome thoughts on this.  Does this idea come from being raised getting what you want?  An upper class kid might have to get strait As to get a new car, so the idea is planted that if you work hard and really want something you will get it.  Working and lower class kids will never get that car no matter how hard they work because their parents can't afford it.  I grew up with a clear idea of limits that some of the wealthier kids i went to school with didn't have.  For instance, I knew I could go to college, but it would have to be community college and then a local university.  Other kids took for granted that they could go wherever they wanted.  Other kids were told they couldn't afford college at all and needed to get a job.  Do these early experiences affect how we view the world?

 

 

 

Magic Money

Linda - Absolutely I think the magic money idea is classist - and racist, homophobic, sexist, and everyother -ist I can think of. This idea that we are where we are in life because of our thoughts/dreams/words is really cold hearted.

My mother gave me "The Secret" as a gift, thinking it would suddenly make me OK with having a private room acupuncture business (I do like that phrase better than boutique, its much more accurate.) I was furious with her. If the secret holds true, all of the people affected by the genocide in Dafur are just victims of their own failure to think positively. The people doing the killing have no responsibility. If the secret is true, then people who are making good money at their job but don't have a lot of money because they are caring for their aging parents are also apparently suffering from wrong thought. Doing right by their parents isn't part of the equation.

I do think that there is a part of the US population which really can get what they want if they just try hard enough. I was raised in a rich town, and it was amazing what some people were just handed by their parents. In the US, we are all privileged because to a certain degree, we all have access to some basic tools that we can use to create for ourselves what we want in life, but the truth remains that it is infinitely easier to do so if one is rich.

The classist assumption that even I make often is that it is better to get stuff than to not get stuff. Why is it that we define success as having a lot of buying power? Classism, that's why. Rich equals power in our society. Why don't we recognize how many people enjoy their working class lifestyle and have no interest in pulling themselves anywhere? Some people enjoy working with their hands.  Some people work less so that they can spend afternoons having bar-b-ques with their working class friends, or having more time to spend with their children. Why can't we even accept that some people enjoy spending time at a bar with their friends before fixing their cars or even, gasp, paying a fancy private-room acupuncturist? What is wrong with community over stuff?  What is wrong with living simply?

On not getting by in America

Where is the logic in the argument that those who can afford $75 dollars are somehow more worthy and make more compliant patients than those who cannot afford that amount?

Maybe a reading of "Nickel and Dimed..on not getting by in America "by Barbara Ehrenrich might be a good wander into territory that many Americans wander every day . Many of our patients put in a days work and they are not rewarded with a living wage or benefits,  and one small misfortune can cause the whole apple cart to come crashing down.

The patients that come to CA clinics can often be  the same ones who come to BA practices except that a little misfortune has been compounded by ensuing misfortune and they have less or no "discretionary" income to throw at the problem/s to fix them .

Or maybe a viewing of the recent PBS documentary series "Unnatural Causes" may prove to be a salutary tale for these bloggers in"there but for the grace of God " may go I..

Here is not only the tale of the " working class" in impoverished areas living on average up to 20 years less than the monied classes that the Burton Bloggers try to attract, but also the stories of the "middle class" and the fact that their lack of large amounts of discretionary income also mean that they will live shorter and less healthier lives simply for the lack of as much money as the monied class to buy good medicine , good food ,decent housing , good schools good prospects for decent work with solid benefits...

I am reminded of the " Rich Dad, Poor Dad" book that was so popular a few years back and I remember thinking as I listened to the author being interviewed that it must be so easy to " attract" money when you have it to start with and you are raised in an environment conducive to its continued manifestation ..rather than dealing with the "Sicko" world that is the lot of most Americans as they watch the buying power of their dollar erode and their " benefits" become more hollow in what they will or will not cover. ...and the rich dads and their offspring get richer and richer...

 

 

 

 

 

Full circle?…more like here we go round the mullberry bush

Firstly, I’d like to address the invite to share my reputation and business strategies with you. It doesn’t feel like a sincere invite, more like a challenge. I’m seeing “lamb to the slaughter”, so thankyou, but no thanks. I know you tried to phrase it nicely, but you’ve proved your intent by suggesting that my comments are examples for your students of ‘what not to do’. However, feel free to use my comments for your purpose. But I think it’s just another example of gross manipulation of the facts for your cause. You are not my client…or at least, I didn’t think so when I made those comments. Therefore, it is not an example of client interaction (if your OCOM students are here, people often speak to each other differently than they would with a client). And as for Jeremy’s comments. I would agree with you that he didn’t express himself in the best way, but I’m sure he wouldn’t say those things to a client either. It seemed that he was attempting to express the fact that you need to succeed in business first, which meant paying the bills etc. before you could take on the cause of healing others, otherwise he would not have a business in which to help people. Suggesting that the idealism of ‘healing the masses’ will not pay the bills is the very same thing that you have said. You obviously use different words, but your education, nor ability to use the english language should not be used to persecute someone….that would seem like classist behaviour to me! If you want to manipulate peoples statements and then nail them with it, I have an example for you. You stated in a comment that at OCOM you teach people “to see through classist thinking”. That indeed you do. If the one wearing rose coloured glasses sees only the positive side of everything, then the one wearing cloggles (classist goggles) sees that everything is classist. As for your angering at something concrete. No one was insulting your clients. There was nothing to defend or get angry about. Burton’s book says that by underpricing yourself, your clients will undervalue you and complain more and that you should respect yourself and charge what you are worth. If you are looking for classist comments, then this might appear to be one. But if you are not, then he has a point. He doesn’t mention what you should charge, the practitioner decides that themselves. You may feel that $40 is plenty. And if the client undervalues you, then they will more than likely complain or not comply. This is all true. There were many examples given by practitioners in comments where this has happened. You say that your clients aren’t difficult, but they don’t undervalue you. And you certainly don’t undervalue yourself. In fact, quite the opposite. As a practitioner, you charge a minimum of $90+/hour (6 x $15minimum), putting you in one of the higher earning brackets for practitioners. Now, you mention that I responded to this apparent concrete reason that angered you (the one mentioned above) with a blurb on general anger. Did I? No. I responded with my thoughts on addressing what you see as classism and the idea of inclusion being something that would remove barriers, not attacking “classist” behaviour. If anyone is unsure, it’s all here in the thread. My blurb on anger came much later in a subsequent discussion with Lisa. And me saying that being so continuously angry over a cause is not healthy was not me coming from a place of higher wisdom at all. In fact, I believe it comes from the same place of wisdom from which you come…that of Chinese Medicine. You say that getting across to your students the ways in which classism exists in our practice is “hard to accomplish”. You say that it can be really “subtle”. I would agree with you, because it is interpretive. What YOU think is classist is definitely not what I see as being classist. Therefore it is always going to be difficult and will send most people on a mind bender trying to avoid being something that they don’t even really understand. Therefore, my money is on teaching people to be inclusive and honest and to understand that we all come from different places. This will be successful every time. It’s an insult to middle class people to suggest that we need to speak to them any differently, and that we need to be taught how to attract them and act around them. If a practitioner is honest with themselves, and with their clients, if they learn to accept the differences in all of us, then this is what their clients will pick up on. The rest is just unnecessary horse sh*t.

I agree with parts of what

I agree with parts of what both sides are saying in this debate.  I think Lisa was rightfully angry at the some of the ideas expressed on that marketing site.  A lot of those ideas were stupid and classist, and I disagree with Inclusion that Lisa was just looking or a fight.  I was angry too, and when it comes to classist issues despite my working class background it takes quite a bit for me to get really angry.  Lisa is using her background and her current experience with working class patients to be a resource for other acupuncturists and we should use all the resources we have so I support her in doing that.  

I also agree with some of the things Inclusion is expressing in the last part of the above post. I sometimes feel that CAN is trying too hard to protect working class people and it can come off as insulting to their intelligence.  I am in this interesting situation because I have recently moved back to my hometown and I have moved in with my father, we are living in the working class neighborhood I grew up in so I'm right here in the thick of it.  I can't kid myself and pretend that I am working class though, my family and neighbors are quick to tell me I should move to Royal Oak and be with the rest of the Yuppies when they get annoyed with some things I say.  If I were to say those things in the clinic a patient would just leave rather than half jokingly tell me I'm being uppity.  I think that is what Lisa is trying to teach. A lot of people unknowingly say insulting things about working class people.  I get upset too because they are talking about my family, and me, even though I have "moved up."

At the clinic I am more aware and careful of what I say and how I act with patients than I am with my own family. I work with all different types of people so I do the best I can to be genuine and not make assumptions about them.  I assume that other practitioners do the same so I think that is what Inclusion is saying.  If we are honest and just treat everyone with respect we will be fine with patients from all backgrounds.  

*

Thank you forYour clarity and persistence is appreciated.we are multidimensional and contradictory

two kinds of "demanding"

Just to get back to a specific example of a classist thing to say - and I happen to believe that even if you don't actually say it to patients, they will pick up on your belief in it - the "Sanborn Maxim" absolutely contradicts 98% of my experience. I've worked in various service jobs off and on for over 20 years (and yes, acupuncture counts), and in my experience it is usually upper middle class and wealthy people who are really demanding and entitled.  Sure, there are people who are annoyingly and unnecessarily penny-pinching, and still very entitled, but I think they tend to be very "old money", and I don't run into many of those.  People who have to work hard to get by tend, in my experience, to see and appreciate other peoples' work.

There are some patients who don't have money (or don't want to spend it) and are "demanding."  Sometimes people are just broke from being sick for a long time and not being able to work much (or at all), and sometimes their illness or lack of resources means they will miss appointments, or be late, or be grumpy.  Sometimes patients HAD money and still hae a sense of entitlement; sometimes they might still have it, but they're not sure how long they'll have it, or not sure yet whether they want to spend it on you.  There are all kinds of reasons that patients can be demanding, but often it just seems to be part of their pattern of imbalance.  Seems like they still have to be treated with compassion, even if you can't/won't give them what they "demand".  This is not the same as being a martyr, or an idealist, or a bad businessperson.  In my experience with this practice model, people either adapt to the clinic M.O. or they don't come back.  Either way I have to wish them well.

 

By the way, Lisa, I think I might have to make myself a tshirt that says "actual, specific bitch." It's so tiring being mistaken for someone who's just generally a bitch to everybody, when as we know I'm just a nice white middle class girl from the midwest, who only brings the bitchiness when I really mean it. 

What did I really say?

Hi everyone,

The interesting thing is, I never said any of the things I've been accused of. I haven't even implied any them, though I'm sure if you want to read into what I said, you can see it that way.

Even the "evil" Sanborn Maxim states "The people who are willing to pay the least demand the most."

I can't tell you how many people seem to read that as "The people who pay the least demand the most."

Two VERY different things. Read it again if you didn't notice. I explain this a bit in the latest posting on my site ("Is it about the money?").

It reminds me of one of my favorite quotes: "We don't see things as they are. We see things as we are." - Anas Nin

As I told Lisa, I thought of her and CAN as I was writing that very thing that ticked her off. Charging a fair rate. A fair rate doesn't mean "as much as possible." It doesn't mean boutique/private room or whatever you want to call it rates. YOU as a practitioner decide what a fair rate is.

(I never made a single comment about CAN style pricing. I actually think that CAN is a very elegant business model - and that it helps underserved parts of society is a bonus.)

What I don't like seeing is discounting because you're afraid, or feel the need to apologize for charging money. Your skills are valuable, and discounting them out of fear, low self-esteem or whatever doesn't serve anyone.

The whole point of the chapter where Lisa "found" my classism statement is to point out common fears/hangups that stop practitioners from reaching patients. Most practitioners that struggle to build their practice have at least one of these fears or hangups.

See if I really am classist - make up your own mind for yourself. The chapters are freely available on my site.

Just remember the Anas Nin quote.

I don't think people were

I don't think people were implying that you personally said all of those things.  I was more upset by things others said on your website.  I read many statements where you praised community acupuncture.  

I think I see the difference in being willing to pay only a lesser amount.  My patients are willing to pay as much as they truly believe they can afford.  My patients have been paying at the higher end of my sliding scale, and even apologize for not paying the top, I have to convince them that it's okay, that I really mean my sliding scale and don't care what they pay on it.

I simply want people of average to lower income to be able to afford acupuncture, my fees have nothing to do with my self-esteem.  I am a good acupuncturist, I get results that would allow me to charge high prices and treat only rich people, but I would hate that.  I want to treat the people in my life and we are not wealthy or even upper middle class.  A lot of us get sick of hearing how someone who earns a low income actually can afford acupuncture if they try harder and we force them to. That's bull, people in my family CAN'T afford $75 a treatment for acupuncture. The people who say we have to charge high rates and people can afford it are ignoring a large segment of the population.  If everyone could actually afford acupuncture the profession wouldn't have such high failure rates.   

I'm also sick of hearing how I'm a martyr, my business is new, but I plan to make good money.  We use quantity to make our money, we are not doing charity or planning to live like paupers, at least I'm not.  All anyone has to do is look at Working Class Acupuncture's financial worth, that clinic brings in more money than almost all acupuncture clinics in the US.    

What does self-esteem have to do with it?

By the way, Lisa, you wrote "...how little self-esteem I must have to do what I do."

I don't see anything you do as requiring low self-esteem. Can you explain?